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[ NNSquad ] Re: INTELLIGENT network management? (far from IP)


I have to take exception to your suggestion that QoS is "definitely required" for proper VoIP operation. Most VoIP today operates without any specific QoS support -- even ISPs that offer this 'thinly veiled VoIP tax' have carried VoIP successfully without traffic management for years. I have worked as a VoIP software architect and can state unequivocally that QoS is not required for VoIP operation -- in fact, its not even close to the top reliability concern -- which is actually 'traffic management' of inbound ports.

VoIP doesn't need QoS, and this is just another mechanism ISPs are using to leverage their own 'digital phone' offerings at the expense of the free market.

For more details refer to Vonage Canada's filing about Shaw Cable to the CRTC that was made about Shaw's $10/mo VoIP QoS "service". Maybe we should let the VoIP companies, not the incumbent competitors tell us what type of traffic management is required. From my perspective, they already have, and are against these types of anti competitive services.

>From my perspective, QoS is totally unnecessary on public links, and ample alternative business models exist to the carriers plans of radical over-subscription.


Kevin McArthur

Fred Reimer wrote:
Hmm.  I have to agree with Brett on most of his comments.  QoS is definitely
part of the IETF RFC's.  And QoS is definitely required for VoIP, in any
network, for it to work properly.  The problem is that there is no common
global, or for that matter national, agreement as to how classifications and
markings are done.  Without that there would be little reason for the
various network owners to trust each other.  There may be one-off agreements
between two ISP's or an ISP and a backbone carrier.  However, unless there
is a national/global standard then we would never get to the point where
end-users can mark their own traffic as they see fit, and have those
markings honored throughout the Internet as long as they complied with their
agreement with their ISP.

I disagree when it comes to the intelligence of the network, and whether
network owners should be able to make policy as to what types of content is
appropriate just because the routers and other network infrastructure
devices have "intelligence."  The Internet is an end-to-end network, not a
client-server network.

Fred Reimer

-----Original Message-----
From: nnsquad-bounces+freimer=ctiusa.com@nnsquad.org
[mailto:nnsquad-bounces+freimer=ctiusa.com@nnsquad.org] On Behalf Of Brett
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 3:04 PM
To: Bob Frankston; nnsquad@nnsquad.org
Subject: [ NNSquad ] Re: INTELLIGENT network management? (far from IP)

At 12:28 PM 2/29/2008, Bob Frankston wrote:
If you require QoS for VoIP then you have the PSTN not the Internet.

QoS was (and is) part of the original design of the Internet. Note the
"Type of Service" fields in both IPv4 and IPv6, as well as the "push"
bit. (Interestingly, there's no "shove" bit. Don't know why. ;-) )

VoIP cannot rely on QoS because you don't have enough control over the

I do have control over my local network and over my interface to my
backbone provider. And when I prioritize VoIP on those, it helps

And VoIP does not rely on QoS -- I verified this with Tom Evslin
who supplied much of the backbone for VoIP.

VoIP becomes nearly unusable in times of heavy loads without QoS. In
fact, it becomes unusable when someone on the same node runs
unthrottled BitTorrent. That's why we prioritize and do P2P mitigation.

Let's not base policies on misconceptions. 

I agree. Hopefully the above will clear up some of those misconceptions.

Yes you can build your own
intelligent network but let's not confuse it with the Internet.

The Internet was never meant to be unintelligent. By design, it relies upon 
routers which have tremendous computing power and very large amounts of 
memory. (And it must. It can't scale or have redundancy without these
What's more, every end node is ITSELF a router and devotes intelligence to
that. It is unreasonable to attempt to exile technology, innovation, or
intelligence from any part of the Internet.

If VoIP fails it fails. 

You may be able to say that, but we can't. We lose the customer if he or
she can't do VoIP.

And if you require real time HD streaming that may fail to. So what?

I believe that it was you who, in a previous message, were voicing
discontent with the performance of HD streaming on your FiOS connection.
We can't support HD streaming on the typical residential connection, but
we DO want to support it if the customer is buying sufficient bandwidth.
If we don't, again, we're out of business. Or someone goes to the FCC
and complains that we're not supporting that medium and must be

--Brett Glass